The Judge Report - A Summer Night

From: catecumen Date: August 3rd, 2008 03:01 pm (UTC) *edited* (Link)

(*shakes head*)

I'd like to use this "Democrats can't understand the national anthem, the flag, or baseball" quote to illustrate this concept that has taken root and grown so much in the last eight years: the idea that belonging to the opposition party is un-American, that criticizing any of the actions of one's government betrays a fundamental inability to identify with all that is good and healthy and happy in one's country, and that the two-party system itself is what the Ann Coulters of this country call "treason," and that the terms "American," "Republican" and "Christian" (and yes, I do include "Catholic" in "Christian," unlike some) are interchangeable.

Edited to add: I have quoted you in the opposition camp, so expect some more hits to this blog, and maybe some discussion. I'm not promising that it will help book sales, but I know that you love a good debate as much as I do!

Edited at 2008-08-03 03:10 pm (UTC)

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From: phoenixdown7 Date: August 3rd, 2008 03:32 pm (UTC) member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

I've been liberal all my life. I mean, I live near San Francisco, it's sort of a given, but whenever I hear the National Anthem, and I mean every time I can't help but tear up...and it makes me feel this beautiful emotion that fills up my chest. I've only had one other experience like that and that was at church, growing up.

I do admit I don't really like baseball. I think it's heart-wrenchingly boring. But I love football (the American kind). I used to be a hardcore 49ers fan, but now that they're basically leaving SF, I'm becoming a bigger fan of the Oakland Raiders (who still suck right now, mind you, but that won't waver my support!). Although I will say this about San Francisco, the biggest team the city has is the Giants and when they play, the stadium is constantly packed and the train I use to commute to school is full of rowdy, beer-drinking families (not the kids, of course!) all ready for the game...and I'm sure that most of them, if you asked them, are liberally-leaning.

Well, as you might imagine, this is why I have to roll my eyes whenever some conservative pundit or GOP politician brings up the dreaded "San Francisco liberal", like it's some sort of alien disease or something. I don't even get what they mean. If they want to talk about scary liberals, go across the bay to Berkeley, there are people there who live in trees and throw their own excrement at policemen! But those are the people who take liberalism to the extremes, just like I feel many neocon evangelicals take conservatism to the extreme. They're both deviations to the norm.

Most liberals don't want to burn the American flag, in fact, we love it. Although I would argue that I care less about symbolism than the place itself...to me, symbolism can be cheap and tacky. Sometimes the flag just doesn't convey the full breadth of feelings I have for this country. I'm more into action than whether or not someone is wearing a flag lapel pin. It's about helping fellow Americans reach their dreams and live rich, happy, and healthy lives. It's about taking care of our troops and making sure that they aren't neglected at any stage of their service, especially their families. Not that I don't love seeing our flag hoisted next to other flags at events like the Olympics...that's a beautiful sight, but it's only a symbol for what really makes us great.

Also, who the heck doesn't like family, fireworks, and friends? Are you nuts? ^__^

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 05:51 pm (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

Those who use the phrase "neocon evangelicals" know precious little about either or even that they are "either".

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From: phoenixdown7 Date: August 3rd, 2008 09:05 pm (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

Well, I don't think of them as mutually exclusive. Neocons don't have to be evangelicals and evangelicals don't have to be neocons, but the worst and most extreme in the right tend to be neocon evangelicals.

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From: iconnu Date: August 3rd, 2008 09:56 pm (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

From my personal experience, living in the South where it frequently seems that the bulk of people you meet are evangelicals, I would agree with you about the "neocon evangelicals" being the most extreme.

I would caution you against assuming all evangelicals are politically conservative, however. I have known a significant number of people who were evangelical in their religious tendencies but economically liberal (with a social gospel kind of feeling) and/or socially secularist (which is generally more left-leaning) in their political tendencies.

That being said, I agree with you about liberal patriotism and civic pride. While the national anthem doesn't do much for me (too marchy, too hard to sing, etc.), "America the Beautiful" has the kind of effect on me that you were talking about. I can not sing it without getting choked up by the time I am through.

In reference to the OP, as a teacher, I do have certain issues with JROTC, but they have less to do with ideology and more to do with time spent away from academics and academic electives and that all too often the lessons JROTC is supposed to impart don't seem to be the ones that get across.

Also, the OP seems to be forgetting something that far too many people on all sides of the debate forget. Despite how it may seem and regardless of what one may think of professional politicians, the lay-people who are passionate about politics--the ones that you or I are going to most commonly find ourselves in conflict with--are generally motivated by (a) a love for what they think their country is/was/could be and (b) a desire to see things get better/continue to improve.

As frustrating as it may be when someone's blueprint for the future doesn't match up with yours, *very few* people actually want things to get *worse,* no matter how desperately wrong you may think they are.

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From: phoenixdown7 Date: August 3rd, 2008 10:46 pm (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

I would caution you against assuming all evangelicals are politically conservative, however. I have known a significant number of people who were evangelical in their religious tendencies but economically liberal (with a social gospel kind of feeling) and/or socially secularist (which is generally more left-leaning) in their political tendencies.

Oh no, I completely agree with you on this. This is why I said neocon evangelicals and not just simply evangelicals. I too know many evangelicals, have grown up with many, who are active in progressive causes like the fight against global warming, poverty, etc.

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 01:47 am (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

ANd just who are the "neocons"? What are their origins, what are their positions? I think you'd be surprised.

I'd also be interested in hearing what positions you find "extreme".

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From: danger0usbeans Date: August 3rd, 2008 06:10 pm (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

"San Francisco liberals" is the right wing code word for "those dirty queers."

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 08:34 pm (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

Now if I can only remember the code word for "Oregon idiot".

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From: phoenixdown7 Date: August 3rd, 2008 09:04 pm (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

Oh yeah! How could I forget? *le sigh*

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 12:15 am (UTC) Re: member of the "opposition camp" here (Link)

phoenix, I apologize for deleting your videos. They were just taking up too much system memory here. Feel free to repost the links only.

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From: clionona Date: August 3rd, 2008 03:45 pm (UTC) (Link)

So... only Republicans can love their family and friends and enjoy a good night of baseball and fireworks?

Um...

*shakes head in disbelief*

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From: logicalargument Date: August 3rd, 2008 04:29 pm (UTC) A video response to The Judge Report, August 3, 2008 (Link)

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 05:55 pm (UTC) Re: A video response to The Judge Report, August 3, 2008 (Link)

Sorry, Ellen, the sound's off on this computer so I'll have to settle for the teleprompter stare. Reminds me of someone.

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From: logicalargument Date: August 3rd, 2008 06:00 pm (UTC) Re: A video response to The Judge Report, August 3, 2008 (Link)

OK, here's the text (I'll put it up at my LJ too, for anyone else who doesn't have sound):

I had something new to talk about, last time I was in court;
It was the publication of this book, "The Judge Report."
You see, it's always just the same each day in my small town,
So it is always neat when something different comes around.
My friend the former judge and I both like a good debate,
And when it comes to fireworks, his blog is always great.
He always has something to say, and I seldom agree,
But I believe in the motto "QUESTION AUTHORITY."
Where the is one position, well, there always is another,
And people's disagreement is a lawyer's bread and butter.
There's nothing as American as is a good debate,
And there is a big difference between dispute and hate.
So if I root for the Yankees and you support the Sox,
Let's talk about our teams and let's refrain from throwing rocks.
You have the right to your beliefs, I have the right to mine,
And you can say what you believe. In this great land, that's fine.
What makes this country greatest is the right to disagree,
And that's what we should all defend, a nation of the free.
And, as my husband says, I now should end this little song
By pointing out that all of us have the right to be wrong.

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 06:06 pm (UTC) Re: A video response to The Judge Report, August 3, 2008 (Link)

Have you ever known anyone to "QUESTION AUTHORITY" more than me? It's practically my motto.

Now I have to fix the sound. I look forward to your presentation.

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From: logicalargument Date: August 3rd, 2008 06:19 pm (UTC) Question Authority! (Link)

That's exactly my point - and why disagreeing with you (even when you were on the bench) has never meant that I don't like you. It just means that I disagree, and that's OK.

*Edited to add:* I've been reflecting on this Ann Coulter quote and the question of rights vs. authority:

"Americans cannot comprehend how their fellow countrymen could not love their country. But the left's anti-Americanism is intrinsic to their entire worldview. Liberals promote the right of Islamic fanatics for the same reason they promote the rights of adulterers, pornographers, abortionists, criminals, and Communists. They instinctively root for anarchy against civilization. The inevitable logic of the liberal position is to be for treason." -- Ann Coulter

If there are only two sides, the government and the individual - if there can be either ORDER, or rights, but not both - which side do you choose?

Edited at 2008-08-05 05:48 pm (UTC)

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From: cmmunchkin Date: August 3rd, 2008 04:30 pm (UTC) (Link)

Wow... that has got to be one of the most insulting things I have ever read. What an incredibly sweeping generalization that belittles half of this country. I am proud to be a democrat and proud to be an American.I am married to a member of the U.S. Navy who has served a tour of duty in Iraq, and have had these same feelings you have described on numerous occasions. He and I both have sacrificed for this country. To suggest that Democrats are unpatriotic, to suggest that we don't enjoy our friends and family, and that we don't ENJOY BASEBALL and FIREWORKS for crying out loud... are you listening to yourself? How incredibly closed-minded and short-sighted. I can't believe you actually wrote this.

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 05:54 pm (UTC) (Link)

I appreciate the sacrifice of you and your husband. I'm quite certain that neither Barack Obama nor the majority of the delegates to your party's convention do. As for the rest, see my comments below.

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 05:29 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yo, folks. And whoaaahh. I am not a spokesman for the McCain campaign, nor am I making sweeping generalizations about Democrats or even liberals (some of them are my best friends).

The only sweeping generalizations I see here are about me (about whom all but one of you know nothing) and people who may think like me. What I am talking about, however briefly, is Barack Obama and the extreme left wing of the Democratic party who nominated him and will be dominating the upcoming convention.

I don't think he gets it, and failure to understand people who don't see the world the way he does will cause him to continue to make rhetorical and tactical blunders that will ultimately cost him the election.

Does he understand Over There? Not in a million years. He comes from a background (and I'm not talking about race or religion, I'm talking about his wacko socialist white mother) where it was, and is, fashionable, as Jeane Kirkpatrick so eloquently put it, to "always blame America first." They cannot conceive of the United States using its armed forces for any purposes (except, perhaps, to reinstall a socialist dictator here or there, or to, as Jimmy Carter once contemplated, send in the Marines to Nicaragua to support the Sandanistas).

I'm talking about those who not only disapprove of ROTC, but seek to ban it everywhere. I'm talking about people like those in my favorite Progressive coffee shop who put up pictures of an American flag with the legend, "These colors don't run . . . the world." I'm talking about those who constantly pontificate that dissenting from American policy is the highest form of patriotism, by which logic we should all be proudly naming our children Benedict Arnold.

Barack Obama, and his hard-left supporters, will simply never understand the Americans who proudly serve their country without hesitation and without regret, risking their lives so that others may be free and so that we at home may have peace.

There are a whole lot of reasons why people don't like Republicans and don't want to vote for them. I could give you a dozen reasons off the top of my head why I don't want to vote for McCain.

But I will.

As for whether I am nuts, it is, sadly, a matter of some public record. That does not mean I'm wrong.

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From: logicalargument Date: August 3rd, 2008 05:53 pm (UTC) (Link)

We can and will disagree, but even if I think you're wrong, you do have the RIGHT to be wrong - and so do the rest of us, which is the whole point of a free country. We're free to disagree and it's OK that we do. That doesn't make us traitors or un-American. Belonging to the opposition party in a two-party system doesn't mean that we can't understand baseball, fireworks, friends and family, which was my point.

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 05:56 pm (UTC) (Link)

And which has nothing whatever to do with my point.

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From: catecumen Date: August 3rd, 2008 06:06 pm (UTC) *edited* (Link)

OK, I'm game, tell us what you mean by "those people meeting soon in Denver don't understand any of this," if you aren't saying that Democrats - simply by the fact of being Democrats, and attending the convention of that party - are unpatriotic and can't possibly understand loving the flag, the national anthem, the value of going to a baseball game with friends and family, and so on. Many of the conservative bloggers and talk-show hosts have explicitly said as much, that being a Democrat means hating this country. If the two-party system itself is treason, what is it, then, that makes this country great?

Edited to add: Is the right to dissent somehow "sacred" in this country? In my opinion, yes. It is sacred, and it is what distinguishes this country from others. The willingness to let the opposition speak, instead of hanging the opposition as traitors, is fundamental, part of the essence and nature of this nation. That's why the writings of people like Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and Michael Savage are lawful dissent and must be allowed, because we do believe in free speech, even if they inspire some disturbed person to go into a Unitarian Universalist church and start shooting during a children's play, and the right of the liberals to share their own opinions is also lawful dissent and equally must be allowed. Disagreement is never treason, not even when Ann Coulter says it is.

Edited at 2008-08-03 06:48 pm (UTC)

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 08:36 pm (UTC) Re: *edited* (Link)

Disagreement is never treason? If that is true, the word is completely devoid of meaning, unless you're saying it's ok to have treasonous thoughts, so long as you don't act on them, in which case I believe I agree.

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From: logicalargument Date: August 3rd, 2008 10:02 pm (UTC) Re: *edited* (Link)

Words and actions ARE different, as we lawyers know. I'm not talking about thoughts. You're well aware of the difference between "action X by the government is wrong" and "let's go kill the president right now, here's a gun."

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From: schmiss Date: August 3rd, 2008 11:11 pm (UTC) (Link)

(Ignoring most of the stuff that other people have covered and just focusing on the discussion of who appreciates the troops and the need for war.)

I would really recommend reading Jim Webb's "A Time to Fight". He's a Vietnam hero who became a Republican after coming home because he didn't feel that the anti-war protesters & Democratic party respected his service at the time. He's now a Democratic senator from Virginia (and one of the first people to speak out against war in Iraq) and writes very lucidly about the politicization of military service since the Korean War, the problem of anti-military rhertoric, and what both parties are doing to keep the "patriotism gap" open and how they can close it.

To be honest, I didn't understand WHY people thought liberals hate the troops until I read this, but this at least helped me understand why you do. And hopefully if you read it you'll see how the idea was constructed by the entanglements of the '60s and the Baby Boomer era - an era that I would note Barack Obama was not a part of.

Really, even my McCain-voting dad loved the book and said that if this guy ran the Democratic party he'd be voting and donating to them. ;D

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Fight-Reclaiming-Fair-America/dp/0767928350

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 02:00 am (UTC) (Link)

I can tolerate Jim Webb. He is a great American hero, featured in The Nightingale's Song along with John McCain. There is in fact virtually no one in his party like him, which is why they ran him as the best chance to pick up a Republican seat. Those democrats who had been kicked out of their traditional home when the party was taken over by McGovernites, who look back with fondness on Harry Truman, Jack Kennedy, Scoop Jackson and other great patriotic liberals, finally had someone they could vote for. Obama does not meet those criteria by a long shot.

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 11:04 am (UTC) (Link)

On your other point, I haven't lived my life in a vacuum. I went to a very left-wing college during the Vietnam era, my brother served there, and I know exactly how those of my contemporaries who ended up taking over the Democrat party viewed the members of our armed forces. Young Chelsea Clinton's candid comment, "Our family doesn't like the military" wasn't an aberration, it reflected the norm. While Obama may not have been of that era, ALL of his influences were, and it shows.

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From: mount_oregano Date: August 3rd, 2008 06:47 pm (UTC) (Link)

Is it safe to be a liberal? The logical outcome of your line of thought is that we must be eliminated.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/aug/02/shooting-raises-question-it-safe-be-liberal/

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 08:29 pm (UTC) (Link)

The above exercise in logic comes from Madrid, Spain, for those of you who are keeping track.

You see, we have a complete dossier on you.

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From: mount_oregano Date: August 3rd, 2008 09:55 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yes, I am an American citizen living overseas, busy helping the American economy by selling American goods and services, which helps keep Americans employed.

Is that patriotic enough for you? But if you really have a dossier, you know how much I love America, and I am an Unitarian Univeralist, a liberal, and a member of the Democratic Party. You know, if you really know so much, that there is no conflict between supporting Obama and wanting America to return to being the country that the world looks up to.

The world needs a strong America, but also one that lives up to its ideals. You can't imagine how much harm the current administration has done not just to our nation's image but to its ability to make the world a safer, better place.

The people who will meet in Denver will understand this deeply and truly, because they do love America.

But I worry about people like you. You say you love America, but do you really? Do you love Americans?

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 02:08 am (UTC) (Link)

I do know the difference between Unitarians and Reform Jews. Unitarians don't send Christmas cards.

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From: iconnu Date: August 4th, 2008 10:01 am (UTC) So, you know how to fall back on insulting someone's religion instead of arguing their points. (Link)

But, you apparently don't know the difference between Unitarians and Unitarian Universalists.

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 10:54 am (UTC) Re: So, you know how to fall back on insulting someone's religion instead of arguing their points. (Link)

That is true. But it was the only Unitarian joke I ever heard, though I could tell you a couple of hundred Catholic ones.

And on my blog I will "argue" when it strikes my fancy. Glad to have your input.

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From: rgoing Date: August 3rd, 2008 08:47 pm (UTC) (Link)

BTW, I hope all you newbies are racing to Amazon to buy a copy of The Judge Report!

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From: (Anonymous) Date: August 3rd, 2008 11:20 pm (UTC) A Democrat here (Link)

As a Democrat whose spine tingles with every playing of Kate Smith's God Bless America, every playing of the National Anthem, every chance to attend a baseball game, every summer night with friends and family and fireworks, and every opportunity to see people carry the flag,......

I respectfully disagree with your opinion of us.

But knowing you, Bob, I know you're just egging us on and I can laugh.

See you!

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 03:31 am (UTC) Re: A Democrat here (Link)

No, I'm not kidding. We really do have dossiers. They handed them out at the last VRWC meeting. Mine weighed sixteen pounds and I only got half of one letter of the alphabet.

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From: txvoodoo Date: August 4th, 2008 01:43 am (UTC) (Link)

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I'm 45 years old. I've lived all over this country.

I have stood at ball games singing the anthem. I have marched in VFW parades. I'm descended rom a long history of military vets. And I'm liberal and a Democrat.

And were it not for health issues, I'd have been working to be one of those delegates voting for Obama, and I will be voting for him in November.

Conservatives do not hold a monopoly on patriotism. I care about and love my nation. I care about what's going to happen to it and its people. I see nothing but further widening of the gap between the haves and used-to-haves should we follow the misguided politics of the current party.

My family members are rather divided, party-wise, mostly in generational gaps. My mother and her siblings are all over 78, all Republicans of good standing. My uncle's a federal magistrate, appointed by Nixon, for heaven's sake. And this year? He's likely going to vote for Obama. Because the GOP, as it stands today, is not the GOP of his youth. They don't stand for his values. They've forgotten about economic conservatives in a rush to embrace some illusory "base" of insubtantial and nebulous values. They've campaigned on the old ideals, and then acted against them when it enriches their pockets, or furthers their own personal agendas.

That's not what my father fought for, or my grandfather. That's what they fought against.

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 02:04 am (UTC) (Link)

See my note above about plenty of good reasons not to vote for Republicans. But there are zero reasons to vote for wacko messianic socialists.

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From: txvoodoo Date: August 4th, 2008 02:10 am (UTC) (Link)

If you can show me one, I won't vote for them.

Otherwise, all you're doing is parroting talking point memes, not speaking intelligently on actual issues.

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 11:09 am (UTC) (Link)

I'm sorry. I must have missed something. Is Obama taking stands on issues now? I mean, other than "Change" which is the most enlightening motto since Faber College's "Knowledge is Good".

Read this blog for a while (or my book) and you'll soon realize that I am on no one's talking point distribution list.

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From: rgoing Date: August 4th, 2008 01:45 am (UTC) (Link)

Say, anybody interested in commenting on the Mohawks and their great season and the new look of Shuttleworth Park? That was, actually, the purpose of this piece.

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From: (Anonymous) Date: August 4th, 2008 11:22 pm (UTC) A Democrat here again (Link)

Listen, I will not be the camera getting advocate for Barack Obama. I won't be quoted anywhere. I will not be over the top and fawning.

I wanted John Edwards. I share his priority for addressing poverty. Then I wanted Hillary, but it was thought out and a choice. I never really understood how Hillary just decided to move to NY and think she could be our senator..... But I did get that she is capable and that's what I want in a president.

I do not know very much about Barack Obama. If I vote for him, it will be because I am a Democrat and do not think well of John McCain's health insurance or economic or military policies.

There is nothing in the current media exchange that makes Obama my candidate. There is an air of entitlement about him that bugs me -- but anyone running for president must have some hubris.

What's dawning on me, though, is I will solidly and thoughtfully vote for Barack Obama if the Republicans pile it on with the fake stories that even Republicans have a problem with. I won't accept that.

There's a long time until November. My hunch is the Republican candidate will continue to lie and I will find my candidate easily.

Kate in NY

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